Every once in a while, I’ll respond to a caller on The Atheist Experience. It’s not that I think Matt Dillahunty has done a bad job, in fact I am almost always impressed with the work he’s done, but it’s often easier to sit back and take a few minutes and digest what a caller is trying to say before formulating a response, a luxury that the host of AE really don’t have.
The last caller of the day on their 6/28/09 show, starting at about 1:15, was a theist named John who, as Matt very correctly pointed out, didn’t have a clue whatsoever what ‘rational’ means, nor how to construct a rational, logical argument. He kept insisting that there must be a god, put in lower case because the caller didn’t seem to embrace any particular religion, and then proceeded to heap a lot of unwarranted assumptions on the claim and couldn’t imagine why everyone was getting so upset with him.
Here’s why:
He starts off saying that the reason people believe in a god isn’t necessarily because they want something out of it, but because they “feel” that there’s something there. That’s blatantly untrue. Don Baker was entirely correct when he said that most theists want to go somewhere after they die, they want to feel part of a community, etc. but he didn’t go far enough. Humans are inherently pattern-seeking creatures, we don’t like not knowing the answer to things. When we are faced with a question that currently has no answer, it is common for humans to “invent” an answer, even as a placeholder, rather than say we just don’t know. The problem comes in when long-held “invented” answers start to take on tradition and a life of their own in society so that it doesn’t matter anymore whether the answer is true or not, the “invented” answer means more to believers than truth. This is exactly what has happened with many long-held religious answers, people have assigned them an importance in their minds that goes beyond the fact that many of these answers are demonstrably wrong. They simply no longer care, they have an emotional attachment that overrides logic and reason. Had that been pointed out at the beginning, it would have derailed a huge number of the coming rambling disaster.
Then he leaps into his first massive logical problem and it’s another opportunity lost to put a stop to this, but it’s largely missed or at least not pursued as far as it ought to have been. John says that he’s convinced that something could not have come from nothing and therefore, that requires that a god created the universe. So John, where did your god come from? If something, in this case god, could not have come from nothing, then you ought not have a god at all. If you want to assert that your god gets special dispensation and has always existed, then why can’t we say the same of the universe and skip your invented middleman? Occam’s Razor would seem to necessitate exactly that. Matt mentions it in passing but doesn’t pursue it and it’s immediately forgotten. John then goes on to assign characteristics to this invented god and entirely freaks out when Matt very correctly calls him on it. However, Matt doesn’t go back nearly far enough. From the get-go, John seems to assign intellience to his god, that’s certainly not proven. There’s no reason to think that even if there was a god, for the sake of argument, that this god must have been intelligent or must have created this universe on purpose. It’s entirely possible, again for the same of argument, that whatever creative agent might have existed could have been entirely non-sentient and knocked over a beaker in some cosmic lab somewhere that spawned our universe. John doesn’t stop there though, he continues to assert that this god must be benevolent and care about his creation. Why? There’s no logical path one can follow which would lead one to that conclusion. Even if we accept for the moment that this initial agent was intelligent and created the universe on purpose, there’s no reason to assume that he continues to care about us at all, or ever did. Our universe might be one of millions of failed experiments that were tossed into the universal dustbin and forgotten about. Or, to follow another line of reasoning, there’s no reason why we should assume this god is still alive, it’s entirely possible that it created our universe, maybe even cared about it, and then dropped dead millenia before mankind ever evolved on this insignificant rock. Making any claim whatsoever about the characteristics of an unsupported deity is entirely idiotic on the face of it, it’s like explaining what Bigfoot’s favorite music is or the Loch Ness Monster’s favorite food. It’s not even speculation, it’s wild fantasy run amuck.
Unfortunately, then he goes leaping into “science will never be able to prove anything about spirituality”. That may be true, simply because there’s no reason to think that spirituality is anything but a made-up fantasy. Spirituality is a buzz-word for self-delusion, nothing more. Science can deal with anything which has actual existence in the factual universe. It might not be able to do so right this second, but if history is any guide, eventually it will be able to. There was a time when we had no way of proving black holes were real, but they were very clearly demonstrated in Einstein’s theories. If Einstein was right, they ought to exist. It was more than 50 years later that we actually found evidence which showed they were real all along. Likewise, the fact that we couldn’t detect sub-atomic particles until very recently in our history doesn’t mean they only started to exist once we came up with the first test. At best, John can only logically say that we have not yet proven anything about spirituality, but that presents it’s own problems. If we cannot demonstrate anything about spirituality, then how can we say that it’s real? There are no testable models which demonstrate it, even if we cannot perform the tests today, there isn’t anything remotely predictive which would lead us to think that “spirituality” is some factually existent thing in our universe, it’s just an assertion, and an entirely bald assertion at that, made by people who want to invent a wholly new reality to suit their illogical belief systems.
Ultimately, John’s failure is one of imagination. He says he looks at all the options, but as Matt points out, he doesn’t have a clue what all the options are. He can only state, without proof, that he’s got them all and ignore any that don’t fit into his perfect little worldview. I pointed out a number of options above that I’m sure he hasn’t considered, nor would he ever consider, which has led him to a faulty conclusion. It’s one part fallacy from ignorance and one part fallacy of the false dilemma rolled into one. He’s come up with a belief that makes him comfortable and then bamboozled himself into thinking it’s the only belief that makes any sense, he throws a fit when Matt points out that he has no logical, rational, evidentially-based reason whatsoever to think any of the things he’s asserting. In the end, he gets hung up on because it’s like talking to a brick wall. He’s convinced himself he can’t be wrong, therefore he’s unwilling to shut the hell up and listen to anyone who doesn’t roll over and take him at his word.
That’s really where most theists fail, they don’t care about reality, they care about how it makes them feel. They care about how happy it makes them. They care about the emotional impact of a position, not the truth value. John, do us all a favor and go get yourself a good, basic education and come on back when you learn that reality, not your feelings about reality, is what counts. That’s why these people are so frustrating and ultimately why they’re so pointless to talk to, they cannot separate what is from how it feels.
And that’s downright pathetic.