Natural Rights Loons Drive Me Crazy

libertarians-are-crazyI guess it’s time for another one of those “why are these people so crazy and irrational” posts, owing the the fact that I’ve gotten myself involved, once again, in a debate with libertarians who cannot demonstrate that natural rights actually exist, they just keep repeating that they do over and over and over again.

I’ve said before that belief in natural rights is pretty much identical to religious faith, but it occurs to me that I don’t think I’ve ever run into anyone who believed in natural rights and wasn’t religious.  That’s not saying it can’t happen, I just can’t remember anyone I’ve debated that wasn’t also a theist and I think that’s important.  Of the three libertarians trying desperately to defend their blind faith in natural rights, all of them are fundamentalist Christians.

So anyhow, here’s one quote I wanted to pull to show how bat shit insane these people really are.:

you don’t seem to understand why I find natural rights to be so important. they are part of a philosophy that exists. trying to impose one concept of existence on “things” that are not defined that way is stupid. Does say “roman catholicism” exist? or angry atheism? sure they do-but not the same way say Iron ore or helium gas exists. same with Natural rights vs. a concrete block

Sure they do, but you can point to them in the real world, you can define what they mean and you can differentiate between the two.    I can define what constitutes Catholicism and produce evidence that such a thing actually exists in the real world.  I can define what atheism is and again, produce objective evidence for it’s existence.  Apparently, these libertarians can’t do that with natural rights.  They seem to think there’s a difference between legal rights and natural rights but they just can’t explain it.  They just have an emotional reaction to it.  They want natural rights to exist, the same way they want gods to exist.  These people are also ardent founding father worshippers.  One is saying that because Thomas Jefferson said something, it has to be true because… Thomas Jefferson.  It’s the same thing as claiming that the Bible has to be true because… the Bible.  And yes, they do use that argument, no matter how pathetic that it is.  Of course, I became a heretic when I said I didn’t care what Thomas Jefferson said, I only cared about demonstrable reality.  That didn’t go over well.

To be honest, I get tired of the dance for the same reason I tire of debating fundamentalist Christians.  They have no interest in listening and I have no interest in compromising.  They have no way of providing objective evidence or logical arguments to support their claims and I am not going to accept less.  If you can’t make your case intellectually, then you’ve lost.  It doesn’t stop these people from making the same claims that the religious do, often the exact same claims that the religious do, and ignoring any and all challenges because they are emotionally attached to their beliefs, but it isn’t a worthwhile argument either. What’s the point when “because!” is the only argument they can make?  It’s like debating with a 6-year old.  I really don’t see the point.

20 thoughts on “Natural Rights Loons Drive Me Crazy”

  1. "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."-Carl Sagan

    That pretty much sums up the way I prefer to go about viewing reality. It’s unfortunate that so many people, especially adults can't seem to turn the rationality button on in their heads and try to figure out things without their emotions dominating how they think and behave.

    I never understood the hero worship and cult-like obsession with the founding fathers and probably never will. Likewise, because I mentioned Carl Sagan, that doesn't mean I idolize him either; I just like the quote. He might have been a great scientist but his continuous drug use and numerous marriages always struck me as particularly irrational. He seemed to let his emotions rule over his decision making in his personal life.

    It seems with libertarians their entire philosophy rests upon the foundation of natural rights; and as soon as it is removed their ideology comes crashing down, so I am not surprised when I see people talk about this get a little hot-headed or desperate trying to justify their bizarre beliefs.

  2. Political Conservatives, libertarians,Baptist, Catholics,Muslims, all failed right wing dogmas of either the selfish, the stupid, or the ignorant. Liberalism is the only way to go when the right has gone so far right they are wrong. Saying your a Conservative Atheist is tantamount to claiming you are a Jewish Nazi. As Bubba would say " It don'ts makes no sense ats all". Conservative values are no values at all. G.O.P. The GREEDY ONE PERCENT.

      1. "idiot"? That's some mighty insultin's you is talkins Bo Cephus. No ways to be debatins. Liberal values are just morally Superior to conservative Jesus, Greed, War, Corruption, and Authoritarianism. Conservatives like to talk about personal responsibility but what they really want is a free ride to one party totalitarianism where the I got mine screw you mentality can run a muck. They value submission to the state based on theocratic nonsense. When in power Contards destroy the middle class, the economy, and a generation of young people are laid waste. They hate science, social justice, women's rights, and actually think that corporations are people. In a Nut shell Conservatives suck.

        1. That's laughable. First off, conservatism is a political, not a religious position. Jesus has nothing to do with it. You've clearly never thought about this, you just take the idiot rednecks beating their Bibles as conservatives when, almost without exception, they simply don't fit the definition. Just saying you are a conservative doesn't make you a conservative. I also don't think morality has anything to do with anything. Morality is entirely subjective, used by the weak-willed and weak-minded to justify their claims that they're right without being able to actually demonstrate that they're right. The religious pull the same thing, they think that they can claim "God said so" and win any fight. They're wrong. I don't really care about morality, which cannot be shown to have any objective validity. I care about results. And authoritarianism? This coming from the left, the homeland of political correctness, which wants to tell people what they can say and think and feel because someone, somewhere just might get offended? Tell us all another one.

          And please, do check out some books on basic English grammar, your desire to capitalize words at random is bizarre, just like your political ideology.

          1. Cephus, I have commented for years right beside you over at Vjacks. I love your work. You are a talented blogger with a great sense of humor, but I find your devotion to the Conservative cause rather odd? All conservatives love to talk about Nazi's, Communist, and ancient Rome. They say they hate these systems yet they use them as a model to advance Contard objectives. You have to admit Contards come off as JERKS. And Grammar has nothing to do with the fact that Conservatives are selfish ME memememememememe PRICKS. They all say one thing, and do the other. And they all love them some Authoritarian leadership. Hitler would be proud of the American Conservative Party.

          2. And where have I ever spoken about Nazis, Communists or ancient Rome in any context except critically? So apparently, all conservatives don't do what you seem to think all conservatives do. Maybe that's because you, like many liberals, see conservatives as boogiemen without really having the slightest clue what conservatism actually is. But sure, you go on and rant all you want, you just make yourself look foolish.

          3. That is my point! Conservatives always say one thing and do another. Personal responsibility, Terry Shievo? Fiscal responsibility huge war born deficits. Social responsibility, Screw the poor bail out the Banks. Helping people no! Lets support a huge military that kills brown people. All controlled by the Conservative Christian right that plays to FEAR! That is what Conservatives do. Liberals not so much. That is why they are SUPERIOR to Conservatives, and they're lack of values.

          4. You have a very bizarre idea of what conservatism is. Those assholes in the GOP are not conservatives. Maybe you need to figure out what you're talking about before you go on a rant.

          5. Please educate me Cephus. Tell me why any sane person would claim that they hold Conservative ideals. Liberalism is so much better. Contards always lose in the long run. And as an Atheist I cannot understand another Atheist holding conservative views. My closest approximation LOG CABIN ATHEIST? Jews for Jesus? Conservatives for the Middle class? All pretty weird.

          6. Liberalism is bullshit. There is nothing good about it. Why in the hell would you think anything liberalism has to say is worthwhile?

          7. So your reply is to ask a question to a question? You can do better my friend. At least pretend we are having an actual debate here. Defend your position, or concede your defeat. Deflect as a matter of conservatism defenders often do. I know you,
            and you can do better? Please tell why Conservatives are so much better. This should be gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          8. We’re not, you’re responding, off topic, to a thread that has nothing to do with this. If you want to have an actual debate, I’m entirely game, but this thread isn’t the place to have it. There are instructions on how to e-mail me above, I suggest you do that, but I will tell you, it won’t be one-sided.

          9. Thank you for your time Cephus. Look forward to reading your posts.keep it real, and have a nice day. Still a fan. and will always be!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peace out brother.

          10. So apparently, you don't want a debate and you're unable to defend your own position. Can't say I'm particularly surprised. You just wanted to rant.

          11. This is one huge load of horseshit. I'll agree with you that O.S.I. is not doing a very good job of critiquing conservatism or defending liberalism. But you resorting to the laughable "liberalism is bullshit" is just you engaging in the same thing for which you are criticizing O.S.I. I've been reading your blog for over a year now and you have never displayed an accurate understanding of liberalism. Instead you trot out these strawman, horseshit caricatures of it. You are no better educated on liberalism than O.S.I is on conservatism.

  3. My guess is that Libertarians also use the well known tactic of fundamentalists everywhere by screaming loudly and ignoring anything that you present?

    More importantly, how did you even decipher this comment

    "you don’t seem to understand why I find natural rights to be so important. they are part of a philosophy that exists. trying to impose one concept of existence on “things” that are not defined that way is stupid. Does say “roman catholicism” exist? or angry atheism? sure they do-but not the same way say Iron ore or helium gas exists. same with Natural rights vs. a concrete block"

    I do not even know where to begin. It looks like someone opened a dictionary and randomly chose words to type.
    My recent post Why are we so poorly evolved?

    1. That's unfortunately far too common and I don't want to suggest that it's only libertarians who do it because clearly it's not, but just today, I had an exchange on Google+ with another self-identified libertarian who did the exact same thing. They capitalize at random, their words don't really make much sense, they'll go on and put one word per line, etc. Now maybe English isn't their first language, but geez, at least try!

  4. I find kind of strange that you link natural righters with libertarians specifically rather than with religious conservatives. Self- identified libertarians tend to be more secular than self identified conservatives in general, and are more likely to eschew arguments from authority than traditional religious conservatives.

    1. I'm saying that many libertarians hold belief in natural rights with the same quasi-religious, non-intellectual, wholly emotional faith that the religious use for their beliefs in gods. And they do rely in appeals to authority, pointing to Kant and Locke and Hobbes as their source of unquestionable wisdom. The parallels between the two groups is a lot closer than some would want to admit.

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