Followers of Christ Church a Cult, Former Member Admits
It should come as no surprise to anyone who has been following the case of Carl and Raylene Worthington whose mindless
faith in religious codswallop resulted in the death of their 15 month old daughter of a perfectly and easily treatable infection last week, that now people are starting to acknowledge that their church is a cult.
“I totally believe it’s a cult, now that I’m out of it,” a former member said. She is afraid to be identified because she is deeply afraid of a backlash from family members and other church members. When she heard about the death of young Ava Worthington, she wasn’t all that surprised. “Her parents are victims too, victims of the church, and they were just following their beliefs that they’ve been taught since they were born,” she said. “But then the other part of me was like, it’s about time.”
Unfortunately, she doesn’t think the church will change it’s teachings if the Worthingtons, who lost another child the same way in 2001, are convicted of manslaughter. In fact, “they’ll probably be looked up to, that they made this sacrifice for the love of God, for the church and for all of the members,” she said.
That’s got to be one of the most disgusting things I’ve heard all week. This is the problem with organized religion, if you give them an inch, they’ll take a life. They don’t care, life has little meaning to these people, their delusions about the “next world” are all that matter. This is why religious freedom in this country needs to be seriously re-evaluated. Yes, people can believe whatever they want, but when it comes to actions, or lack thereof, there needs to be a limitation on how far you can go, or not go, because of your beliefs. People need to be held to higher standards and I don’t care what stupid crap they think their imaginary friend in the sky wants, when their inaction is resulting in the death of innocent children, I’ll be the first one to say that religion should go out the window.
55 Comments to “Followers of Christ Church a Cult, Former Member Admits”
You know these ignorant people who always have thier mouth flapping are going to Hell,so don't even give them the time of day. When the world is in the very end ,we'll see if they start praying !!!
See, that's the problem, nobody needs to respect your beliefs just because you want people to do so. Beliefs, like everything else, need to earn respect, and these beliefs have not only not earned respect, they have earned scorn. I do know what I'm talking about, you just don't want to deal with reality, you'd rather live in your little fantasy world with your make believe friend, pretending that you know things that you have no way of knowing because some primitive book tells you so.
Besides, I don't have to shut up, it's my blog, I can say what I want whether you like it or not. Maybe you ought to try to come up with credible criticisms of what I say and prove me wrong. Oh wait, that would require you to actually understand the basis of your own beliefs and how reality actually works, something that, apparently since you seem to hate science, cannot do.
It is not manslaughter. Ones belief is ones belief. I have read all the sites on my religion but i have faith in my church. God says who he is and I believe that. Those of you that have other opinions please let me know. Any one can disagree but as long as it isn't science related I will listen to. Do not talk crap unless you know what you are talking about. If you have done your research, I wanna hear. If not,….SHUT UP!!!
I am not a follower of this blog, nor did I read every comment. I live in NY now, and lived in OC over 10 years ago. I am in the works of publishing a book, but when that is done, I am considering the idea of possibly writing a novel (of sorts) based on the kinds of conflicts evolving from controversial religious practices. The Followers of Christ Church exemplifies this idea. I have not thought it through at all, but it would be a good challenge and something to re focus my attention on once my current book is published. I am not interested in slamming anyone or any religion, but am very interested in getting the "truth" or first hand experience of various members from the Oregon City location to reference and draw perspectives from etc. If you are someone from OC and might be willing to consent to an interview, please let me know. I already know two former members of the congregation from OC that I could talk to, but I know their perspective are negative and they left the church with bad feelings etc. I would like to speak mainly to those who are happily practicing to get a more accurate understanding etc. My email is: mck5war@yahoo.com
Cephus:"You might as well be following the Harry Potter books as your moral guide."
Is that what you follow because atheism got no moral codex?
I agree with you that for the most part these believers seem like really decent, good people but the great delusion that they are occupied with places them in an insane world that affects their everyday choices in their lives. Because we live in this delusional reality we perceive their actions as average. Perhaps what we call everyday reality is nothing more than a socially programmed hypnosis in which we are all collectively caught up in. Every once in a while some people have broken out of this socially programmed hypnosis and can determine the sane from the insane. Usually these rational people who have broken out are a motley group of sages, psychotics and geniuses.
Perhaps we need to ask ourselves, are we part of a psychosis of the collective mind? That what we have been calling normal is really the psychopathology of the average. I liken this to living in an insane asylum; once you are admitted neither the psychiatrists nor anyone else can tell whether you are sane or not. Interestingly, it is only an occasional patients who notices that you are not insane at all.
……. It is of some interest to know that a number of years ago a few medical interns, residents, or just students, feigned insanity and got themselves admitted to a mental institution. After they arrived they dropped the sham and acted “ normal.” During the time they were institutionalized ( a few days) none of the medical staff including the psychiatrists were cognizant of the fact they were normal. Only some of the insane patients realized that the perpetrators were not insane. After their release they wrote it up in a prestigious psychiatric journal and embarrassed the hell out of the psychiatrists who were shocked to learn that once a person is considered insane and institutionalized their medical acumen failed at distinguishing between the sane and insane
For what it's worth: The people I know in the church are for the most part really decent, good people. They just don't know any other way. I try to stay away from the topic of religion for the most part when I am around members of the church, but it is impossible to avoid it entirely. I know that many of them are praying that I will someday return to the church, but it isn't going to happen. If theirs is truly the one chosen religion, I guess I missed that boat.
The faith based healing aspect is really disturbing. I know several people who have lost infants in child birth, and it is absolutely heart breaking to see it happen again and again. One especially heart breaking episode involved a friend that I grew up with losing his wife during child birth unnecessarily. It is really a shame. I finally stopped attending funerals of infants, because I just couldn't take it any more. This has caused a rift between me and some of the people I love, but I have had enough.
My wife was really freaked out the first time she heard one of my church member relatives praying before a meal. When they pray, they seem to change the tone of their voice and pray in kind of a monotone, chanting dialog. I don't know if "chanting" accurately describes it, but it is the only word I can think of to describe it. I usually can't understand most of the words that they say when they pray, but it is because they often speak at a relatively lower volume. I am somewhat used to it because I have been around these people all of my life, but it is certainly unlike anything I have ever heard in the form of a prayer anywhere else.
I am old enough to remember Donny Baldwin, but just barely. I know he is highly regarded by most of the people I know who are still in the church. Since his passing, there really has been no preacher to speak of (in the Boise church anyway). Men will come forward and proclaim that they have been appointed by God to preach, but that has just seemed to cause suspicion, doubt, and infighting among the members. Those who choose to follow the "new" preacher are shunned and disassociated from the rest of the group. Several splinter groups have formed due to this. It seems strange to me that the church can even exist under these conditions, but somehow it keeps chugging right along.
Weird. That's about the only way I can describe this church, or cult as some of you have been calling it. I remember going to the services and absolutely hating every minute of it. I remember that people would confess their sins to the entire congregation. They would stand up and just start telling everyone all the sinful things they had done. I always thought it was strange, but some of the stories were interesting in a sick, twisted way. Children were to be seen and not heard, but falling asleep would get you an ass-beating as would any kind of fidgeting around or whispering during the service. They do a lot of singing. Singing hymns was the worst, but I remember that they would sing half of a hymn, do some praying and then sing the other half of that hymn right before letting out. I remember being really relieved when they sang only half a hymn, because I knew the end of the service was soon to come.
I am a former member of this church. I was lucky in that my parents quit going to this church when I was relatively young. I still have many extended family members who are involved with this church, mostly in the Boise and Marsing churches. My sister is and has always been a member. She continued on with the church after my parents quit. I am in a kind of limbo with the church. Since many of my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc are still very much involved with the church I am somewhat still a member. I know it may sound confusing to someone who has never been a part of something like this, but it is what it is. I could go to church this Sunday and be welcomed with open arms. Someone off the street maybe not so much. This church does absolutely nothing with regard to community outreach, does not recruit new members, and does not believe in missionary work. Pretty much opposite of just about any other Christian based religion as far as I know.
I too was raised in this vileness. The Baldwin referenced earlier was not a preacher, but a deacon. One of those who when called upon for the sick and infirm would come and set in prayer circle around you and rub olive oil on your shattered foot and tell you to walk to walk the sprain off.
These people are twisted in their views. It is not simply a a belief in the bible as they interpret it, they believe in total and complete manifest destiny from their god. Everything that happens to his because you are suppose to experience or suffer it. Death from diabetes, skin cancer, stomach ulcers, any manner of abuse, all of it you are to suffer thru. You do not deal with people of the world, those not members.
The retarded or unbalanced were posses by satan ad had to have him removed, this you watch as a child as well as the prayer circles and watching men women and children die oftentimes in your own hands. As a child you can have the option of holding your freshly stillborn baby sister or brother. Any doubt your part makes you an outcast and of the world.
There church in Caldwell is not Idaho's only one. There is a chapter in Boise, a compound called Shippyville and one in Rush Creek. These are ones i was raised in and forced to visit.
Yes you were called out in the public of the congregation for your sins by others (hester prine) or asked to come forth and tell your sins by standing in the church session and sharing with man woman and child. As a child i heard them many times speak of the grants pass and oregon city chapters, they are all the same.
Freedom of religion, as guaranteed by the US Constitution, is the freedom to believe, not the freedom nor a license to practice illegal, immoral, or harmful things or to subvert established law. The constitution also guarantees the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all of which the Worthington’s denied to their daughter and it seems, a majority of The Followers of Christ deny to their children. Freedom to raise children as parents deem proper is protected as it should be. It must be confronted, however, when abuse, whether direct or indirect, occurs under the supervision of parents. Whether or not certain Followers intend to do it or not, denying others their liberty to seek medical care, a very basic need accepted by all cultures, is wrong. They need to be held accountable under a court of law for these violations. Religious doctrine which breaks law or fosters abuse should have very little legal muster over common sense and decency when it comes to the health and well being of those who are dependent on their parents.
No matter your beliefs, no matter if you look to a higher power or not, it is NEVER acceptable to kill another human being, whether it be through intentional murder or incredible neglect. What kind of religion would rather see a child die than seek the help of a trained professional? There are so many people like this in the world that make feel (sadly) ashamed to call myself a Christian. This sort of extreme behavior, said to be in the name of God, is just fuel for the fire of hatred that nonbelievers feel towards those who follow Christ.
This is to STEVE MAYES… Don’t you think the DA blew this case when he didn’t call for testamonies from former members to refute what was being lied about on the stand??
Isn’t that what a subpoena is for???
That there are two universal elements, hydrogen, and stupidity, is evident by much of the commentary here.
The scary thing is that the religious-types who’ve commented have done so in the belief that what they’re advocating is real.
I have to echo the commentary of the author, who doesn’t care what these people believe — if they want to believe the earth is flat and revolves around the sun (another great ‘belief’ of the church in the Middle Ages until Galileo came along), then go ahead on — when it begins to affect the lives of innocents, then the State must step in with several doses of legally-administered common-sense.
Again – as was so well-stated: You are free to believe. You are not always free to do.
I am interested in speaking with current members of the Followers of Christ congregation in Oregon City or those who left the church in recent years.
Steve Mayes
Reporter, The Oregonian
503-294-5916
I was a member of the Oregon City Followers for over 20 years and I can say with 100% percent certainty that the building as a whole looks the other way when it’s members do things that society would object to. My own family was torn apart by abuse and lies. To live daily with the knowledge that the torture you are experiencing in your own home will not be stopped, that there is no one who will step in and help you and that you cannot possibly seek outside help becasue of the shame you will bring on “the church”, is overwhelming. There were those in that building who knew what was going on in my house, or at least knew something wasn’t right, yet did nothing! When the truth came out we were abandoned by our “brothers and sisters”. My family imploded while they stood by pretending it wasn’t happening. I lost everything that I thought ever meant something to me. When this is how you are raised it is nearly impossible to turn away. No matter what you know is right you also know what you will lose if you acknowledge all the wrong. The vast majority of those out there know the way they are living is wrong but are too frightened to stand up and say anything about it. They are waiting for a great savior to step up and rescue them. How many men have stepped forward but were rejected?? Has there ever been somebody bodily removed from the building for standing up and trying to say their peace?? The only thing this church fears is it’s own members! There is no love of God in that building. They have always stood on the belief that God will protect those within it’s walls if they follow the teachings of their long gone preacher. How can they still be there and not look around them and see the destruction that is coming? “He” isn’t with you anymore. You should be concerning yourselves with what you can do to live more Godly lives than what your neighbor is wearing or who they are talking to. For any member to come on here and say that they have never stood by and did nothing to stop the abuse of women and children is an out right lie! You all do it! All the “men” who hold their little meetings that women are forbiden to take part in, all the parents who have forced their children to marry as young as 14 becasue they fornicated with each other, all you who have stood by while a woman, so exhausted from days of labor and couldn’t possibly be able to think clearly, dies right along side her baby, those who have visited a young mother, too young to die, too delerious from pain to speak on her own behalf, and walk away knowing she will die and it is WRONG, those of you who have used force to keep your young adults from leaving, locking them in rooms and boarding over the windows. You will all be judged for the action or lack there of in the end. I sleep in peace every night knowing that by leaving that lie of a “church” I have given my children the future they never could have had there! I have taught them what true love means. The freedom I felt when I left that place, the peace that came over my heart that I carry with me every day, lets me know I did the right thing. While I was there I lived in confusion and fear. That is NOT religion! I hope with all my heart that the State of Oregon follows through with it’s promise to a little boy named Beau, that no child would die needlessly in that building again. The parents and all who witnessed the suffering of these 2 children should be punished. The bible tells us to obey the laws of the land. All the laws need to apply to this “church”, not just the ones they think they can live with. Do they pay taxes? Yes. Do they abide the speed limits? Yes. Do they pay for fishing and hunting licenses? Yes. Do they go out and kill some random stranger? NO!! They only kill their women and children when they are too weak or too young to speak for themselves. We need to speak for them by showing these people that they are NOT above EVERY law of the land!!
Sorry, but as I’ve been told, both in e-mail and right here in comments from former members of this church, trying to convince any of them that what they’re doing is wrong is nigh impossible. In order for them to change their minds, they’d have to be open to the possibility that their religious beliefs are not 100% true and that’s simply not going to happen. You have to keep in mind that these are not rational people, they are not people you can reason with. They are fanatics who sincerely believe that an invisible boojum in the sky demands that they unquestioningly follow his commandments to the letter or he will condemn them to an eternity of torture and hellfire. Trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with a rock, it’s just not possible. You just have to go back to the first comment in this thread to see that.
Your argument about abused women and children is a case in point. Most abused women refuse to leave their abusive partners because they justify that it’s their fault they get abused. The same is largely true of many fundamentalist churches, and I don’t want to get tied in specifically to just the FLDS. These are people who have serious mental problems, who need to get a little sense verbally knocked into them, who need a jolt to the system where a hug just won’t do. Does it work for everyone? Of course not. But you don’t see religious deprogrammers out there using hug therapy, they’re serious and don’t pull punches, metaphorically. Neither do I. Don’t like my approach? Sorry. Want touchy-feely? Look elsewhere.
People ought to be angry at things like this. People need to be angry. This is not something you can calmly and cooly debate with the religious, it’s something that you need to take to the legislators and to the authorities and insist that they do something about an untenable situation. You act like posting here is all I ever do, I’m very active in fighting for changes in legislation in cases like this and always have been.
Is my anger going to keep anyone from leaving the church? Of course not. The only thing that will coax people into leaving this, and other objectionable chuches is their willingness to question the core dogmas and realize that what they have been doing, what the entire religion has been doing, is immoral and unjust. That’s not going to happen by patting them on the head and telling them everything is fine. It’s going to come with a swift kick in the ass and a loud “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?” Reason just doesn’t work with the unreasonable, it takes something to spark their minds, perhaps wondering why so many people are mad at what they’re doing.
A & B) Yes, I agree. As a group we can get legislation passed to force them from allowing their children to die. But I just wish you could see the bigger picture. You can keep the cases out in front of the public eye and get the word out to those that don’t know about it yet and trigger emotions in people who will hopefully jump on the bandwagon and stand up and try to be part of the larger group who wants the laws to change but you can do this without so much anger. And by toning down the anger you may also touch someone from the church who reads your blog who may want to leave the cult but doesn’t know how or who to go to for the help and support they would need in order to do so. The anger will only scare them from making the attempt to leave. Most of these people have no idea that your anger comes from (I’m guessing) the frustration of narrow minded ignorant people not allowing their kids the proper medical attention that should be given to them when they are sick.
I don’t agree with you in regards to a “swift kick in the head”. That is no way to change young people unless you want to scare them into doing what you want them to and that tactic is no different then the leaders in the church and two wrongs do not make it right.
There is no use in trying to change the older people because they have been ingrained in this way of believing for so long that there is no point in trying to change them. But, I believe there is hope for young people, the ones that are in high school and still have connections to the outside world before they go and get married and loose their everyday interaction with the outside world. And you are not going to get through to them with a swift kick to the head just like you wouldn’t get through to a battered women by telling her that she is stupid and ignorant for allowing herself to be abused and leaving it at that. But if you tell her that it is not right for her to be treated that way and there are people who can help and inform her of shelters and whatnot you may get her to make the break. And you wouldn’t get very far with an abused child by telling them how stupid they are for not running away from their abuser unless you offered them ideas of where they could go or who they could talk to to help them out of the situation…it’s the same difference in the case of the OC church. If there were more classmates or teachers or counselors that would reach out to the high school age kids the same way people reach out to abused women and children maybe more could be saved.
Getting the laws changed and writing to Congressmen and supporting legislation and signing petitions is a very good way to support the changes that need to be made.
If I had not had someone from the outside who gained my trust and slowly but surely showed me that I was being forced (out of fear) to believe the ways of the church I may still be a member of the OC church. I am one of the few that was lucky enough to find a caring, trusting person who was not the scary, evil and mean worldly person I was taught to fear. This person became a link to the outside world and was able to offer the support I needed to make a break from the church, my family and the only friends I had ever had to make it in the world away from this cult and live a normal life. And I say high school age because once they are out of high school they are done with school. I do not know of anyone going on to college or trying to further their education and parents do not encourage them to do so mainly because they don’t want their kids having any more contact with the outside world than what is necessary. And once you reach the college, as you gain more independence and become self sufficient, you may start to question the church’s teachings so there is a very small window to reach out to these young people and more need to do so.
I don’t feel that it is your personal responsibility to try to save these people but I do worry that your anger could discourage someone wanting to leave the church and that worry is what has sparked me to write to you. I only ask that you think about it and know that your words DO have the power to coax someone out of the hole a little further or push them back in.
Thanks for your time.
A) In case you haven’t looked, I do stories from around the globe. In just the last week or so, I’ve done stories of religious abuse from Saudi Arabia, Russia, Africa and around the world. The point is not to run out and personally try to save the world, but to inform people that these abuses are going on. As an individual, most can do little about religious abuse. As a large group of concerned individuals, we can do a lot.
B) While the kind, concerned approach will occasionally work, most of the time, these theotards need a swift kick in the head to get a couple of errant brain cells firing. You have to remember that these are not rational, intellectual, logical people, these are people who believe in magic men in the sky. At least with regards to their religious beliefs, they are functionally insane. Patting them on the head and saying “awww, it’s okay if you believe in silly superstitious nonsense” is a lie. It isn’t okay.
Unfortunately, we live in a society where religious belief gets a pass where the same actions for non-religious reasons would land someone in prison. Denying basic medical care to your children should get CPS taking your kids away, but as soon as you say that your religion demands that you do so, society demands a largely hands off approach. Yes, society is slowly changing, yes the laws are changing, but until they actually change… we’re stuck just talking about it and keeping the sickest of the sick in the public spotlight for all to see.
C) Yes, legislation is evolving, but until it reaches the point where religious liberties are not allowed to extend to causing physical or mental harm to others, the best we can do is keep the cases in front of the public and keep the pressure on our legislators. As long as what they do is legal, none of us can force them to change their behaviors.
The problem is that there really is no way to help the functionally insane. So long as they believe that anyone who doesn’t believe and act as they do are evil, you cannot lead them to rationality. Until they are forced by the law and hopefully by a few metaphorical knocks to the noggin, to re-evaluate their silly beliefs, the limit to which one can help them is limited to keeping them from being a danger to themselves and others.
As much as it’s nice to think that you can lead the young out of the insanity, compared to the intense indoctrination that fundamentalist churches especially force on their children, it’s highly unlikely that you’ll ever be able to reach them, at least until they start to question their own beliefs. If they never do, they’re lost forever. A closed mind cannot be changed.
So I’m a bit confused. You comment because you love to “bitch” ? I agree with your what you are saying but not how you are saying it.
A) If the church is several thousand miles away I can understand that you can’t try to help these uneducated members in person.
B) If you don’t try, you can’t help. There are many ways to help. How about rather than coming across as someone that is ready to rip lungs out you try to take the edge off so that people could open up to rather than feel defensive? You seem to have a lot of facts and if you were approachable maybe one of these troubled souls would ask you questions to try to get another view point that would lead them to be “saved from their own self-imposed stupidity”. The anger that come across from you only fuels their thoughts of the outside world being full of mean and evil people who are out to hurt them rather than help them.
C) Legislation is evolving – which will help prosecute parents who sit back and let their children die. Unfortunately it take time to change the laws but we are getting there. Hopefully before more lives are lost.
I don’t know you and have nothing against you. I only wish there were more people who would try approaching the members of this church with a “help thy neighbor” attitude rather than attack them which will push them further into seclusion which will result in even fewer opportunities to reach out to the younger members who may have a chance of meeting someone who could show them the way out.
A) the cult is several thousand miles away.
B) you can’t save people from their own self-imposed stupidity.
C) whether we like it or not, people have a right to believe whatever idiotic nonsense they want to believe. In this country, we have a freedom of religion. Unfortunately, that also means that one can legally kill your kids because you believe in stupid, nonsensical things. It’s a shame, it’s horrible, but it’s the law.
Why don’t you all take the energy spent on your ranting and do something good with it like trying to educate some of the young ones and maybe save them from this cult?
I must comment on the subtitle of this blog space. YELLING at the World one topic at a time cracks me up! Have a bunch of fun, you YELLERS!
Warm & fuzzy regards……
It’s really sad that there are people who want to let these animals off virtually scot free. They are the cause of innocent children DYING! Oh yes, let’s let them off with a slap on the wrist so they can do it again, shall we?
People like you disgust me.
Cephus, Wow. Whatever happened in your past must have been very, very bad. It seems difficult to understand how you can know the world as ‘a better place’ when you seem so angry.
Anyway, I just wanted to add that this is a very sad issue and I agree whole-heartedly with Darren. It is now up to the legal system to decide and not public opinion or outcry. I think that the public should at least wait to find out what they are sentenced to. My personal hope is probation.
Even better yet, let’s set them free from religion entirely, the world’s a much better place when you don’t have fantasy hanging over your head.
I am not a member of this church. I lived in Oregon City and had many childhood friends who were members of the Followers of Christ church. Several of them, in fact, were some of my closest friends in elementary school. Then, in middle school, they all of a sudden stopped talking with me and really shunned all of us who were not members of the church. I didn’t understand why they would all of a sudden drop me as if I were nothing.
Anyway, I watched many of my former friends get married very young (16 yrs or so), stop attending high school, and start families with men who were often times many years their senior.
I say all of this to say that I have always had a heart for the Followers. I believe that they are truely good people who are trying to do what they believe is right. But, they are bound by fear and ignorance. It appears that they are afraid to leave the church or even to learn about things outside of the church…so afraid that some do not feel safe even leaving their name on this site. This is incredibly sad to me…what a life to live…in fear. Jesus Christ, I pray that you set these people free in your Holy name. Let them experience the wonderful peace and freedom you truely bring.
I am a former member of the Church in Oregon City. I left as an adult and am living a moral life. I am curious if there are any bloggers here that are also former members of the OC church.
All I can tell you is that in the same way that the suicide bombers kill themselves for their wonderful reward . You can be raised from a child to believe anything. I know, because I believed it all.
Don’t flame me, thanks
There has never been a complete freedom of religion in this country, not should there be. Cannibals cannot eat human flesh because of their religious practices. People cannot practice human sacrifice, or even animal sacrifice most of the time, regardless of their beliefs. There are certain societal standards that must be maintained regardless of religion and when religion crosses that line, religion loses. Whether or not the parents intended to murder their children, the fact remains that, because of their beliefs, they *DID* murder their children. Failing to provide proper medical care is a legally actionable offense no matter what silly things the parent might believe. That’s why most of these parents are being found criminally negligent, in addition to other charges.
If you want to be an idiot and give up your own medical care, that’s one thing, I consider it evolution in action, but when your religious ignorance results in harm to another party, you’ve crossed the line.
It\’s an interesting point you make! I stand corrected. In the slavery issue those who were not fettered benefitted in some way even if they detested the practice. but that\’s off subject. Though we may abhor other\’s practices the legal battles also affect our freedoms. The problem here is really one for the legal system to decide and not public outcry or opinion. I find it personally objectionable to believe that any of these parents were desiring or intending for harm to pass to their children. That is a very intricate part of any crime that has to be determined. they are at the most negligent but absolutely not murderes!
That’s like saying people who aren’t slaves should keep their mouths shut because their lives aren’t affected by the doctrines of slavery. In case you haven’t noticed, innocent children are DYING because of these idiotic religious practices. That affects everyone.
I don\\\’t see the benefit in these rantings by persons whose lives are not affected by these doctrines when those who have lost their loved ones seem very secure in their convictions. It\\\’s just preaching to the choir for both parties! lol But I have found these posts interesting and having their own entertainment value! As a sidelight though a couple of persons have posted a little about the common history of these church groups. Seems there is very little outside credible information as most of what we have been reading seems to be on the sensational point on the medical issue which doesn\\\’t seem to appear unanimous. Would others of this group be willing to post a little more on their history and background?
Watching From Afar…….you despise Satanists. What do you think of Witches and Pagans? (I know she will come back even though she said she is gone.) And I hope she comes back to answer this because I want to see how naive, hippocritical, and shallow this person ACTUALLY is. I WILL be back later, this is interesting. I did not know about this particular religion until today. l
Oh yeah, and when I was in the Idaho church… no one went to the doctor… So this is either new, or just more crap to keep all the heat on Ore. City.
Hi, I grew up in this church as well. I knew Donny Baldwin. Does he not count as a \"preacher\"? He preached in Marsing/ Caldwell, Grants Pass, and Boise. The truth is this. I had friends die from appendix ruptures, diabetes, and can say that women did die in child birth… in Idaho. I have seen people survive the weirdest crap you can imagine. The truth is, this is a cult. If you are a follower then, why is it that \"worldly\" people are so horrible? Education, understanding, and compassion for others, are really the only way that you will ever truly know who you are, and trust me, you are more than a mis-construed translation of a book that has been written a hundred different ways. It\’s a cult. Finally, I would like to say that we aren\’t talking about evil people here. Just plain ignorant.
I agree with Cephus in saying that all religions are usseless and a waste of time
people that believe that the bible is the “WORD” of god are OBVIUSLY unbalanced individuals seeing as how the first Bible was written a very very VERY long time after the supposed death of christ, and obviusly, his ” Desiples”.
reliegon is , and allways will be, a fairy tale told by people that are stong and charismatic in thier speaking. they have a god complex that , for some reason, compels them to spout lies to the people of the world, and to thier self.
and any arguments to thsi comment i will ignore completly unless u can PROVE without a shadow of a doubt that jesus was gods son and that he was resirected and he was born of a virgins womb. and without these things you are proving to me that you a drone that will blindy follow any old coot with a book and a powerfull pressence
All I have to say is Don’t cast your pearls before swine. There is no agrument here because if you had the truth you would not be on this website.
No, none of them are able to demonstrate that their beliefs are true and in that regard, they are *ALL* worthless and stupid. However, the overwhelming majority of them avoid killing their kids because they refuse to give them medical treatment. That makes *YOUR* church worse than the typical mindless religious drivel. You personally may not be part of that particular belief and for that, you may be rightfully proud, but the fact is, you still believe the ridiculous religious tenets of the religion and follow an ancient book of mythology with no demonstrable evidence for it’s factual nature. You might as well be following the Harry Potter books as your moral guide.
No matter how you may try to live your life, and indeed it’s admirable that you don’t fall for the ridiculous and harmful lies that some do, that doesn’t excuse the people that do molest children, do kill children, do harm others, all in the name of their religion.
And thanks, while I appreciate your desire for me to “find God”, I already did that long, long ago. And then I got better. Thanks anyhow.
*shrugs* Ok Cephus, but explain this to me…. Thousands upon Thousands of churches are in this world… Is a single one of them able to demonstrate your demanded “Substantive, objective evidence”? if so, please list a few for me, I fail to see many 
I also know of over a dozen churches that call themselves “Followers of Christ” but are actually all different. *LDS Church is even in there* anyways, You believe that I have been taken in by Shysters, however I first have, have tried it and found it true… I have no need to demonstrate anything to you or anybody else in this world…I followed the bible, and have studied it… also I have prayed upon it for a very long time. I know that what I found, is genuine, and you knock it… *shrugs* oh well you can’t possible know what I have been through personally, so I don’t blame you for anything. I honestly feel and believe that the churches for all intended purposes are completely different churches than that of Oregon City or Caldwell ID, I’m truly sorry to those that have had bad experiences, and as for those that call out ’sinner’ and ‘hypocrite’ Was it not Christ that said “Let he that is without sin cast the first stone” ? Every church has had it’s trials and problems, there isn’t ONE church that hasn’t had a fault…That is unfortunately, due to the Nature of Humans 
I’m not some single-minded fanatical zealot that you automatically assume me to be lol, that’s just another assumption, given this site and the page I happen to be posting on… Also, I wasn’t arguing about whose church is better…I was simply informing that there were branches that followed after men that literally said they were the leaders of the church. I never said my church is ‘better’, that is yet another assumption… You presume to judge me, when you have never met me, or talked with me first hand. I pity the man that believes they know a book just by it’s cover or it’s title… OH and on the ‘objective evidence’ before licensed physicians… Been there done that 
But I might as well be talking to a brick wall, you will only hear and see what you wish. I had hoped to reach out to an open-minded person on here, but it seems it’s called “Bitch Spot” just for that reason lmao! Guess I’m just naive then? oh and “Me” you attended one service, so does a lifetime commitment come from one meeting? Go ahead to another church, but you will never find what you’re truly looking for if you’re not praying, and studying the bible, to see if that’s what the church itself is attempting to teach, or the ideals of man… There is not a person on this planet that has no sin. I am sorry for the bad experiences, but also realize that perhaps we are all talking about different churches rather than what we first thought? Also back to Cephus, I loved what you had to finish with, speak of the purely hypocritical xD I have to point this out… I love irony
“I’m not saying that you haven’t seen something, but there are lots of shysters out there and apparently, you’ve been taken in.” Meaning that I didn’t see anything after all? Ok back to clearing up assumptions, I have seen and had things happen to me that NO man could do. The adversary does not give off an aura of peace, joy, love, and absolute bliss, when he’s doing any of his malpractices. Now, please either apologize for your blatant shoving of words into my mouth, and quit assuming things….or please just keep those comments to yourself. A simple “You don’t have to post here…” would have worked and I would have been on my way. Honestly I am annoyed at the closed mindedness that apparently takes people in like flames take in moths… Cephus, if you have the gal to accuse me of saying any church or belief is lower than mine (excluding Satanist…I do despise them)… Who the heck do you think you are? I have Not said that nor did I intend it with what I said above I’m stating facts from sources you obviously could care little about. I have friends with many different religious backgrounds, and I resent your implications that I would call any of them lesser than myself -_- I would gladly die for any one of them. Oh wait…here I go ranting again… You probably never heard of the phrase “Being Humble” as I try to live that way with my friends (Which I don’t believe I’ll find any of them here, sorry.)
anyways, I’ll take my hint and go, again I’m sorry for the bad experiences that people have suffered…but dont give up on God, he IS there for you, and you will find him if you are looking and you’re heart is true.
God bless all, and Cephus…I hope you find God in your life.
-Watching from Afar for the last time.
I attended this church while i was married to someone who grew up there. this is a cult and the people in this cult are hypocrites. i hated every minute of being trapped in this hell hole.
Unfortunately, you’re arguing “my church is better than their church” when in reality, *ALL* of them are bad, yours included. That’s not to say you don’t have a right to believe whatever you want, but if you’re unable or unwilling to back it up with substantive, objective evidence to demonstrate that it’s actually valid and true, then you have no leg to stand on when rational, intelligent people reject your beliefs as pure fantasy. It doesn’t matter which crazy offshoot of which crazy cult you follow, they’re all crazy cults.
And until someone manages to demonstrate faith-healing works objectively, before doctors, who can verify it, it doesn’t work. There are lots of claims, zero objective evidence. I’m not saying that you haven’t seen something, but there are lots of shysters out there and apparently, you’ve been taken in.
OH one small bit of info… Walter White… would chastise members of the organization for not shopping at ‘his’ grocery store…and like things. There has been Ministers for the Owyhee and Grants Pass churches for a number of years now, helping teach the word in the bible and NOT their own…( We are not willing to see mistakes of the past come back and repeat themselves…) Also the ’splits’ that I had mentioned beforehand took place several decades between eachother. I’m trying to be as clear as I can, I’ve worked all night and it’s close to the sun rising, so I’m perhaps not as understandable as I normally am.
Was just trying to clarify some other things.
God Bless and take care.
-Watching From Afar
P.S.> I have not seen, nor would any member of our church condone the Rape or Abuse of any woman or child..OR man for that matter, I know people believe us to be a fanatical cult… I will not disprove somebody elses opinions… I will just say this however, I have seen Faith-Healing work instantaneously. I have seen and took part in many things that I have been taught, according to The King James Version New Testament. Please don’t judge me until you can truly disprove me or understand me. That’s all I ask.
God Bless All.
Seeing how recent many of these posts are, I thought I would leave a tidbit of information… Please be unassuming and non-judgemental as I am merely trying to clarify some information I’ve read here.
First off, Oregon City Church split from the Caldwell ID church, following teachings of a man, with more selfish and prideful ideals in mind, as much…They shun outsiders and anybody that isn’t born into their church…
Caldwell ID church, which still communicated with Grants Pass, but not Oregon City… Had a split within itself… Many things contributed to this split, including a lot of factors from the Oregon City one…. Several men felt they could lead the Church themselves… and likewise Shun outsiders, yes they are openly friendly, but the branch that split off…and Moved to a location in the Owhyee’s they shun openly and often. They also have a small building in Boise, ID…which was aptly named the Boise Church to them. They absolutely refuse to acknowledge doctors and medical practices… However this is not the traditions that originated within the church or its doctrine, this was the results of Man/Men introducing their versions of what is ‘right’ next to the scriptures… The Grants Pass and Owyhee branches, try to stick close to the bible, but this doesn’t prevent them from seeing Doctors for help, or other things such as Medicines, for it says “Judge not them that take herbs” (I don’t have my bible handy but I believe it’s in John and I wish I could quote it better) Anyways, aside from that, I thought I would try to paint a clearer, non-judging image to go with the vague sayings and assumptions. I respect everybody’s opinions and I won’t hold their words against them. Please, however, keep in mind that every Religion has it’s “offshoots” and publicities that have a bad reputation and name to those that are still good and well meaning. Before you go off on a Tangent to me though, Yes I’m a member… I’ve been to Doctors, but it’s purely my choice, and I’m not shunned nor do I fear being shunned for such choices. I wish I could quote some of the passages that would help me better explain my situation, but I imagine there are a great deal of people that are quite mad at me posting this by now, so I’ll take my leave.
God Bless All, and may His grace and love be abounding to you.
-Watching From Afar
I’m not so much concerned about what they believe, although I will admit that I think much of what they believe is utterly insane and irrational, I’m really only concerned that they’re harming people and violating the laws of the society in which they live and for that they need to be held accountable, regardless of what their beliefs are.
They are free to believe in whatever silly nonsense they want, they are not, however, free to do whatever they wish according to those beliefs. When they start raping children and treating women like property, that’s when the authorities have the right to step in and put a stop to it. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from consequences.
I could state my own personal opinion here about this church and some of the hypocrital living that I have seen firsthand from some of it’s own members in the southern Idaho church! These people are good people but they also have a shut-tight door to their own little world of beliefs! Yes, I sway more to the belief that this is, in fact, a church of a cultist nature. Jesus taught to go out and spread the gospel to the world. Let your light shine to those who are in the dark about His love and sacrifice so that when asked by unbelievers of your glowing faith, you could answer to them that it is our Savior, Jesus Christ, who has taken all of our burdens and sins upon Himself…….making it possible for us to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. NOT works! Not a CLOSED church! I honestly feel that this church is waaaaaay off in their understanding of how salvation is strictly a free gift given to us by the death of God’s Son, Jesus Christ on the cross of calvary. I thank my God above that salvation is granted so easily by His Sons death and resurrection, rather than by attending a church who closes it’s doors to ‘the world’! The world would not ever know the truth if all the Christian churches closes it’s doors to ‘outsiders’! Jesus invited EVERYONE to partake in His free gift of salvation…NOT a closed off club of people who turns their noses up at those who are not ‘of them’!
The real question is, why would you take any of the malarkey they spout seriously? No offense, but doesn’t it bother you that nothing they preach can be substantiated outside of blind faith?
Beyond that, this particular church is clearly corrupt and it’s members are violating the law, why would you want to save an obviously corrupt church where children are being harmed? That’s one thing I never understand, especially from adherents, why in the world would you defend a corrupt, harmful religion, simply because it’s religious? Pedophilia is a sick perversion, it doesn’t get any better because someone sticks a cross out in front of the compound.
I grew up in the Follower’s of Christ Church in Grants Pass, OR and have seen many of the God’s will practices, some resulted in people living and some in their dying. I left the church at 16 because their teachings changed and I could not understand why the Elders would do this as I grew up I understand. Now I see a new change as the older member’s of this church die out the younger ones are looking the other way when you go to the doctor, and I see them interacting more with the “worldly” people of the community. I miss the fellowship, safety and love I felt in this church as a youngster. I truely hope the church is changing and that there may be hope for the survival of this particular church. I do not agree with the extremism I have heard of from the Oregon City Follower’s of Christ church, and have rarely seen the Grants Pass church fellowship with the Oregon City church, but they do fellowship with Caldwell, ID church regularly. Someday, I hope to fellowship in Grants Pass again, as I have not been excommunicated as other churches practice.
ignoranse? Really? I do believe that is spelled “ignorance”. Wow it sounds as if you may be a part of this cult. You must not have made it through high school either.
“Which includes to follow God’s word as laid out in the Bible.” You tell me where it says to pray for the dying child and to not take him/her to a medical facility. If you want to take your religion as far as not relying on physicians then do not use all modern things such as; cell phones, the internet, your car. Build your grass hut or cave that Jesus lived in, you all seem to be holier than thou, but you don’t have facts to back it up. Come on….show me!
If you knew how to read you would have seen that the reason I named those countries was to point out that they, not limited, but borderline enslaved their population.
I don’t care if you want to critisize me. I don’t even know you.
My point to the “former member” was that if he is goint to accuse the CHURCH of being a “cult” then he should be able to show his accused who he is if he feels so powerful about it. I know of many others who have OPENLY spoke out w/o a problem.
The only ignoranse you will find is when you speak.
Of course, this is from someone who, surprise surprise, doesn’t leave their real name. Pathetic excuses aside, you have no right to go calling someone a coward when you’re an even bigger one, and a hypocrite, to boot.
In fact, I can ridicule people who have faith as much as I want, it’s my blog. Don’t like it, don’t read it. The fact of the matter is that countries like Singapore, Iraq, Iran and Germany all limited what you could believe and how you could act.
The utter ignorance coming from your comment is astounding.
Clelstart,
I wonder what kind of coward can go on a website and critisize his/her former family and not even have the balls to leave their real name. I have a real reason for not leaving mine. I would have the news crawling at my door because of someone like you.
I know for A FACT that the youth CAN & DO read scripture. I do it all of the time. The problem is that certain people just don’t have the faith to do certain things. Which includes to follow God’s word as laid out in the Bible.
As to the other ignorant commenters: if you don’t believe in God that’s fine. But don’t ridicule people who do. You, in fact, should be thanking religious groups for the very freedoms that you have. If you inact a government which only allows you to be ” free to believe what you wish, but not free to act as you wish” (to quote one of the ignorant commenters) you might as well be prepared to live in Singapore, Iraq, Iran, or Nazi freakin’ Germany. attitudes and comments such as your will only take away ALL fredom and, also, only lead to the next world war and eventually our self extinction.
I agree with you entirely. I think the first thing we need to do as a society is get over the whole “it’s a religion, it’s got to be valid!” nonsense. Just because someone believes something doesn’t make it worthwhile The whole concept of “religion is special” causes exactly these kinds of situations where people abuse others and violate the law under the guise of religious faith.
The reality needs to be, you’re free to believe what you wish, but you are not free to act as you wish, especially when those actions violate the law and the rights of others.
But it’ll never fly, there are too many people who are convinced that as soon as you start talking religion, they turn their brains off.
i too am a former member of this cult. i was raised in this church/cult. facts are not understood by the public.
first important one that is not understood: there is not a preacher and has not been one since 1969.
the members are acting on a belief that is based on ignorance. the older people discourage the youth in reading the scriptures. they do not want the young people to be educated on the truth.
i think if change is going to happen then the legal system needs to attack the church property and bank account. the members will start thinking for themselves if there is not a building and big bank account to provide a meeting place. also, if all members that meet in a household to pray for a child as the child dies is charged with criminal manslaughter, this too would create a change.
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